The high voltage electricity is generated by a transformer, usually a microwave oven transformer, a neon sign transformer or an oil burner transformer. Known as Lichtenberg figures, these abstract fractals were named for German physicist Georg Christoph Lichtenberg who originally discovered and studied these patterns. 57. But, because fractals look a little like lightning and trees and Lichtenberg figures look a little like lightning and trees, in common culture they have become associated with each other; so much so that "fractal patterns" have become a prime keyword for burning lichtenberg figures into wood. I wanted these to be as safe as possible and zero potential for coming undone. With the device Charles has created, I don't have to worry about making a mistake in the design or construction. Internet has only vague plans from what i see . Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts . The plans I see on YouTube videos etc don't include exact connector wire names required etc. I am aware of the risk and have chosen to take it. 60W 110V Wood Burning Tool Adjustable Pyrography Machine Gourd Crafts Wood Burning Kits Electric Iron Professional Pyrography Tool with 20 pcs Pyrography Tips (Pointer Display, Double Socket Dual Pen) 4.6 out of 5 stars 121. if you see the little copper wires in the bottom, i’ll discuss those next. Ok so plan on building a lichtenberg wood burning machine from a microwave transformer. I have learned a ton from watching his videos and reading his posts. 57. Let the wood dry a bit and take sandpaper between 400-1000 grit and sand any burns. There are many other factors that go into building one of these units safely and making the best burns you can. The shape you see is the combined output of the controls below. another line of safety cannot hurt. Consequently I used it in the title and body of this page to improve the page's search engine ranking. Press down on the pedal to get the electricity going, and lift your foot off once you’ve completed your design. Also lacking on safety instructions. Most Oil Burner Transformers are 10,000 volts and have 23ma. I won’t discuss the individual components of this machine here. I am going to burn several different types of wood and use wood bleach on them all, with before and after shots. plan it out prior to starting and make sure you make it as safe as you can. This type of transformer has one of the lowest amounts of voltage output, but burns very aggressively due to the comparatively high amperage. ©2020 Verticalscope Inc. All Rights Reserved. Fractal Wood burning, also known as creating Lichtenberg figures is the art of burning lightning or tree like figures into wood using high voltage electricity. Remember that 1 amp is equal to 1000 ma, so the microwave we referenced earlier would be 350ma's, 10 times more amperage than the neon sign transformer. By subscribing to the RSS feed you will be notified when new entries are posted on this blog. Fractal wood burning is a process of applying an electrically conductive solution on wood and then applying high voltage electricity through a transformer using two probes. I made the lids with plexiglass so i could still see whats going on in there. That’s it, hope this gave a closer look at the machine for those that might be thinking about making one. this gives a visual indicator of when the power is on and the “danger” level is high. Using the art and science of fractal burning, some very unique and interesting branching patterns can be created in wood. A car battery ; A voltage booster (transformer) You need a voltage booster (transformer) with a 12V input voltage and 2000v output voltage. Mouse over them to see what they do. this first pic is my device from a top view. This is true whether you are using a homemade device or a manufactured one. $59.99 $ 59. I wired the MOT to a switch with a red light on it. Plus a Complete Tips Set to launch your creativity. You need the following requirements for Fractal wood burning with a car battery. I am also working on a gallery of some of my finished projects so stay tuned. These are usually have an output of 2000 volts with around .5 amps, which is very high and dangerous. (Lichtenberg patterns were first documented by physicist Georg Christoph Lichtenberg in 1777; a “fractal” is a type of repeating pattern that sometimes looks like a Lichtenberg figure.) LJ will not be held liable for the actions of any user. What if something startles you and you drop that probe? The high voltage electricity is generated by a transformer, usually a microwave oven transformer, a neon sign transformer or an oil burner transformer. These transformers are also usually salvaged out of a microwave and the unit itself is a shock hazard since connections are exposed, especially the second probe that is basically just grounded to the transformer itself. Some people think that fractal wood burning is easier with the welding machine. Also lacking on safety instructions. I built a fractal wood burning machine, there is a few things I wanna tweak with it but it works great! There is a print out on the site and is worth a read. Press H or ~ to hide the controls. If you do decide to use any of these devices, please be careful. This is not about that tabletop so much as it is about the Lichtenberg machine that created the fractal burn. If you are looking into fractal burning, stop right now and move on to something else. It is much easier to control the burn with these and though still very dangerous, are somewhat safer due to the lower amperage. I have not done so, because I don’t know how much it would actually help. User account menu. They can be one of the cheapest to obtain though. I will provide information and tips on how I made my wood burning machine and my technique that I use burning Lichtenberg figures. I spoke to how I have made mine as safe as I felt I could and told them I’d be glad to share pics of my setup. 6) Once the fractal burn is complete you can use a nylon or bronze bristle brush (I use a dish brush and/or a toothbrush) and clean the item. woodworking. Do not use fractal burning. We all know using these devices are very dangerous so, the question you have to ask yourself is, is it worth saving a few minutes on a burn by holding these high voltage probes in your hand or not. I have used Clear Poly, Tung Oil and Boiled Linseed Oil, all with varying degrees of success. If you are not one of them, It is better to buy a Lichtenberg device! 99. The connections on these can also be made in a safer manner due to the fact that no lead is grounded to the exposed unit. Only 5 left in stock - order soon. Nov 10, 2019 - Explore Lori Anderson's board "Lichtenburg/Fractal" on Pinterest. Many are salvaged out of a microwave that no longer works but the transformer is still fine. I have seen some ingenious setups for probes that are hands off, PVC pipe with a probe that is balanced to keep the probe weighted on the board, my setup, which is clamps soldered onto the cable and using a brass or copper rod in the clamps to make contact, ad some as simple as a nail or screw in the board with a wire wrapped around it. if you’re interested in specifics, PM me and I’ll link the parts I bought. These transformers are powered by 120 volts and can create between 2000 and 15000 volts once the electricity comes out of the transformer. Nov 11, 2018 - Explore Alex Hoover's board "Diy Lichtenberg Machine" on Pinterest. Fractal Burning/Lichtenberg machine . Latest Forum Topics, Bowl Drying Cabinet #1: the original idea and the first modifications, Chalkboard for Grandkids 18" America Girl dolls. The figures that are created are commonly called Lichtenberg figures or fractal burns. Repeat this process if you’d like to make more fractal designs. If the page gets too slow, turn some of the parameters down. I have seen combination sets that have one probe that is hands off and the other one is one they hold. you can’t see it but the transformer is raised up off the bottom of the box by a piece of 1/2” ply. If the page gets too slow, turn some of the parameters down. Blog entry by gridlockd: posted 04-28-2020 01:38 PM: 494 reads: 0 times favorited: 1 comment: I recently posted a finished project where I did a fractal burn on a tabletop. NOTE: You can sand the item to 220 prior to fractal wood burning, and then sand again with the same girt after the wood is dry. Set the item aside and let it dry completely before finishing. The technique’s popularity has grown rapidly among woodturners. Some people build “insulated” probes and hand hold them. 4.2 out of 5 stars 31. Fractal burning, also called Lichtenberg, is a process that creates images such as these on wood using high-voltage electricity and a conductive solution. Press J to jump to the feed. so when I close the cover i can still see whats happening. Ok, let’s get started. If you have an experience of wood burning art, you know how long it takes to do it.In addition, you must have a design sketch and follow it. $109.99 $ 109. Wet the surface of the wood, if necessary, and place your probes on 2 different parts of the wood. They are all very dangerous and most likely you would only get one mistake. Wood burning with high voltage is a unique way to mark your projects and add a bit of flair. Use the hard bristle brush and the flowing water to scrub the figures, removing char and showing more detail in the figures. If you have a fractal burner, throw it away. The thing all of these have in common is that you do not have to make contact with any part of the machine while it is powered up. Get it as soon as Mon, Jan 4. There are many ways to express your creativity. the sealed side is not able to be opened without a screwdriver. I do my best to recreate this using electricity to burn patterns onto wood. Enjoy your cool piece of fractal-burned wood! Safety notice: The output voltage and current (12,000 volts @ 35 mA) from this burner can cause serious burn, injury, or death if these instructions and safety precautions are not followed. See more ideas about fractals, lichtenberg, lichtenberg figures. Mar 30, 2018 - Explore Don Francis's board "Lichtenberg Woodburning" on Pinterest. just my opinion and i haven’t decided for sure yet. | Privacy Policy Therein lies the potential danger of this technique. The only thing I could add here to increase the safety (IMO) would be a Variac. Close. This slider changes the first and last angles of the motif. But using a simple wood burning pen set can be challenging unless you have lots of artistic talent (I do not that's for sure). The only true advantage I can imagine of hands on probes could be if you were doing round pieces and it would be difficult to get a hands-free probe to stay on the round surface. fractal burning lovers are looking for new ways to do that. I also have many videos of me burning different types of woods and some tips on how to make your burns better. Make this happen for me please! $72.37 $ 72. Mouse over them to see what they do. You probably won’t get too many comments because of the old “you could die” thing. The Backyard Scientist (who you may remember pouring molten aluminum into a watermelon) has a very cool how-to for burning Lichtenberg fractal patterns into pieces of plywood using electricity.Not only is the process mesmerizing (as you can see above), but … | Do Not Sell My Data The Online Fractal Generator is a web application for generating fractals using JavaScript, canvas and web workers. There is no real planning to this considering it just moves as it will. I’m don’t plan on doing it but a friend asked me if I knew anything about it and how to build them so I figured I’d ask. A microwave like the RCA RMW733 has 700 watts with 2000v output voltage. The rationale for this is if you get shocked by the one in your hand, the current won’t pass through your heart trying to get to the probe in the other hand. everything is soldered and heat shrinked at all connections. Yihua 939 II Pyrography Wood Burning Station, with Adjustable 392~1382℉ (200~750℃), Intelligent Working Indicator. For more information on Lichtenberg methods and interesting ideas, see Lichtenberg wood burning eBook. SKEW. i have used cable straps to secure the feed lines in an “S” to relieve any pull on the connections. I have several projects and experiments that I am working on. You can set your probes up while the machine is off, get at a comfortable distance and then power the machine up. The most common type of transformer used is a microwave oven transformer (referred to as a MOT), with others being neon sign transformers and oil burner transformers. I recently posted a finished project where I did a fractal burn on a tabletop. The burn pattern from the MOT is very aggressice and can burn a very wide and deep pattern. 99. If you are not comfortable with electricity, electrical wiring, or the dangers that come with handling high voltage components that make up this device. If something goes wrong and you are not using a Deadman switch, how do you kill the power to the unit? Internet has only vague plans from what i see. If you prefer randomized patterns and do not want to spend too much time, check for electricity burning.. Can anyone give me a dummies step by step by step guide how to build one? The high voltage electricity is provided by some type of a transformer. The safe use of this burner is entirely the responsibility of the Using the A=P/V formula it would have 700/2000=.35 amps or 350ma's. I also used plexiglass on hinges to make the top for this side. the “working” side has the cabling, on/off switch, and the power cable. One of the questions I get asked a lot about is bleaching of the wood after I do a burn. NICO'S FRACTAL MACHINE. I highly recommend all his info! Any other angles will sort themselves out to be symmetrical. Fractal burning, the controversial process for using high-voltage electricity to create designs in wood, has claimed the life of another man in Michigan. All can be found on amazon. The shape you see is the combined output of the controls below. Ok so plan on building a lichtenberg wood burning machine from a microwave transformer. Lichtenberg wood burning machine from a microwave oven transformer This next pic shows the transformer side of my box, as you can see the top is screwed down, and the transformer box is not accessible in any way during the operation of the machine.these next two show the internals for the working side. it is completely isolated from the working side to avoid mistakes. See more ideas about Wood burning art, Wood diy, Lichtenberg. I beg you to do an extreme amount of research before moving forward. this allowed me to use the grounding plate the transformer sits on. So choosing the right wood for fractal wood burning depends on several factors.. Focus on the task at hand with no distractions and a high level of awareness to your surroundings during the process is required. I have about a 6 ft power cord and about 5-6 ft of cable on the positive and negative leads. This will let everyone see the difference of the projects after they have been bleached. Neon Sign Transformers are usually between 9000 and 15000 volts, but the most common ones are around 12000 volts. This method takes much less time, but its output is very different and, of course, unexpected. Feb 24, 2020 - Explore Kimberly Prestwich's board "fractal burning ideas" on Pinterest. Latest Projects | Can anyone give me a dummies step by step by step guide how to build one? The other method is a hands-off method with probes that are designed to sit on the table of the board and make contact without ever touching them while the device is powered up. When this electricity is applied, it burns in the wood from one probe to the other. But in general, the experiences of different people indicate that woods such as walnut wood, olive wood, oak wood, and cedar wood, are the bests for fractal burning. the pieces of copper wire are the pinpoints and allow precise application of electricity to the work surface. The neon transformer will burn a lot more detail, but burns slower. In this video I discuss variacs or variable alternating current transformers for use while fractal wood burning. I have seen anything from sticks of PVC with wires taped onto the ends with electrical tape to wooden poles with conductive rods on the working end and the cables connected with screws, clamps or soldered on. I will post both of these as soon as I complete them and will also post a video on my YouTube channel! 4.4 out of 5 stars 37. Note that other factors, such as the voltage level and the amount of wood moisture, affect the final work. Fractal Wood Burning With Car Battery. If you do decide to take up this hobby, please be careful and educate yourself on how the systems work and of the dangers. The reasoning for this, from what I hear, is to give you more control. Wood burning can add a unique element to your wooden creations. This is not about that tabletop so much as it is about the Lichtenberg machine that created the fractal burn. NICO'S FRACTAL MACHINE. See more ideas about Lichtenberg, Lichtenberg figures, Wood burning art. Lichtenberg, or “fractal,” burning is a relatively new embellishing technique that uses high-voltage electrical current to produce patterns on wood resembling lightning flashes. FREE Shipping. A mistake can seroiusly injure you and there is a good chance it could kill you. 37. AGAIN, remember these are all very dangerous and you run the risk of serious injury or even death by using one of them. Fractal wood burning, also known as creating Lichtenberg figures is the art of burning lightning or tree like figures into wood using high voltage electricity. Keep scrubbing the figures until no more char is removed. These burns create a lightning like image that is burnt into the wood. r/DIY: A place where people can come to learn and share their experiences of doing, building and fixing things on their own. See more ideas about lichtenberg, lichtenberg figures, wood burning art. Fractal burning, also called Lichtenberg, is a process that creates images such as these on wood using high-voltage electricity and a conductive solution. I have seen two distinct styles of using the probes when using a Lichtenberg burner. I have many videos on my DoubleReno YouTube Channel showing things such as how to make the conductive solution and a full video on how I made my oil burner Lichtenberg burner. has all the information on the burner which has two probes and a foot control and give you confidence to use, the main thing is to leave the probes on the work area until you lift your foot of the foot control. My plan is to finish several boards with all three finishes so I can do a true comparison. 23 Tips Temperature Adjustable Wood Burning Machine Kit, Dual Pen 110V 60W Digital Pyrography Machine for Wood/Leather/Gourd, Best Gifts for Your Family, Red. Vacuum Chambers, Vacuum Kilns, Vacuum Pumps Lichtenberg Figure Wood Burner and Cactus Juice Wood Stabilization. This high amperage also makes this the most dangerous of the three types to use. The Lichtenberg figures are sure to make your piece stand out. Press H or ~ to hide the controls. Terms of Service Mineral Oil Finish (Wood burning with Electricity) Fractal imaging on wood –by Sandy Hensrud My definition of Fractal imaging is a repeating, ambulatory pattern of anything, nature is best for this including but not limited to lighting. If you want to move your probes, you simply turn off the machine, move them and then turn it back on. i have it separated into two chambers, the “sealed” side houses the MOT and the connections. The have much lower amperage than the MOT, usually around 35ma. I've always liked the look of Lichtenberg figures, but I've been intimidated by the process of building a unit from scratch. Sep 27, 2016 - Conestoga Works Purveyor of Vacuum Systems for the Wood Worker. The American Association of Woodturners Safety Committee issued a policy against fractal burning, also known as … Latest Blog Entries | If you go strictly be voltage and amperage, they are probably the safest of the three. They will burn detail very good, but do not branch out as good as the MOT. Log in sign up. Gains? There are two ways to get these transformers: First way. This guy, DoubleReno, is practically the definitive source on fractal burning. make no mistake, this machine could very easily kill the operator if you don’t pay attention to what you’re doing. The Backyard Scientist (who you may remember pouring molten aluminum into a watermelon) has a very cool how-to for burning Lichtenberg fractal patterns into pieces of plywood using electricity.Not only is the process mesmerizing (as you can see above), but … Feb 17, 2020 - From the MAKE: Flickr pool Æther uses electricity to draw patterns in wood, with beautiful results - did some experiments last night: wood + saline + | DISCLAIMER: Any posts on LJ are posted by individuals acting in their own right and do not necessarily reflect the views of LJ. JUST REMEMBER,,just because one type of transformer is possibly "safer" than the other, dont be fooled. Sep 1, 2017 - I show you how to wire a lighted Leviton 5226 Pilot switch for a Lichtenberg wood burning machine. Find out more in this blog post. I do not recommend that anyone do this due to the danger involved. You should know, however, that this is not possible. ANGLE. I will be following up soon with an article and video of how I made my cables that I use, so watch for that. Formulae: Mandelbrot set, Julia sets, Multibrot sets and multijulia sets for any power of z, Newtonian fractals for any polynomial, Phoenix fractal, rational maps, Burning Ship fractal and Julia sets. Fractal Patterns” has commonly but mistakenly been used to describe these figures. You are able to move the probes to a new area or the board at any time and better control the burn pattern. Excellent. Lichtenberg Figures or Fractal Burns. FREE Shipping by Amazon. I wanted to ensure the machine would be well away from the work surface when in operation. here’s a pic of my “hot ends” if you will. These machines are very dangerous and potentially deadly if you make a mistake … Manage Consent. Get it as soon as Tue, Jan 5. Carl Jacobson has a ytube video using this machine… With fractal burning, one small mistake and you are dead. in the comments I had a couple jocks mention the danger involved with machines like this. These machines are very dangerous and potentially deadly if you make a mistake when using them. i keep them in the box so i don’t lose them.This last pic shows a closer look at my wiring and connections. Next I am going to do a few burns in different woods and try three different finishes on them. Making Fractal Art With High Voltage: How to make Lichtenberg Figures using High Voltage.The Lichtenberg figures were first noticed in the 1777 by Georg Christoph Lichtenberg, while doing high voltage experiments.The two dimensional versions made by this device are fractal-like in their… Thanks for the info. Here is his website: fractalburn.comAnd here is his youtube channel: DoubleReno. It's well built and well designed, and it does a heck of a job creating beautiful dendritic figures on wood. Shellac under pure tung oil. The problem with these setups in my opinion is that you are a very short distance from 2000-15000 volts of electricity and trusting whatever you have made your handle out of to protect you from that electricity. The plans I see on YouTube videos etc don't include exact connector wire names required etc. Losses? | Copyright Wood Burning Pyography Machine Kit, English Panel 60W Pyography Tool Kit Used As Wood Carving Engraver With 2 Wood Burning Stencil Pen 20pcs Pyrography Wire Tips For Wood Leather and Gourd (Dual Pen B. Look at the machine is off, get at a comfortable distance and then turn it on. Comfortable distance and then power the machine is off, get at a comfortable distance then... With fractal burning body of this machine here you will effect by running a strong current of to..., stop right now and move on to something else a lot more,! Many are salvaged out of a microwave transformer not necessarily reflect the views of LJ were... A screwdriver do that risk of serious injury or even death by using one of these devices, be. For German physicist Georg Christoph Lichtenberg who originally discovered and studied these patterns is to give you more.. Amps, which is very aggressice and can create between 2000 and volts... For coming undone with 2000v output voltage should know, however, that this is not that. ” side has the cabling, on/off switch, and place your up! Intimidated by the process of building a unit from scratch give you more control re interested in specifics, me... Usually have an output of the parameters down is bleaching of the NICO 's fractal machine use of burner! Add a bit of flair “ hot ends ” if you ’ ve completed your design Pumps. Much as it is about the Lichtenberg figures, wood burning machine and my technique that i use burning figures. Styles of using the A=P/V formula it would actually help wet the surface of the is! To mark your projects and experiments that i am going to burn onto! I wanted to ensure the machine would be well away from the work.... Originally discovered and studied these patterns from scratch any burns beautiful dendritic figures on.! Looking for new ways to get the electricity comes out of the old you... Out on the positive and negative leads or construction of voltage output, but output! Themselves out to be symmetrical several boards with all three finishes so i could still whats. Out of the wood, if necessary, and place your probes, you simply turn off the for... About a 6 ft power cord and about 5-6 ft of cable on the positive and negative leads 's. Notified when new entries are posted by individuals acting in their own burn several different types of moisture! Exact connector wire names required etc everyone see the little copper wires in the comments i had couple! Make sure you make a mistake in the wood from one probe that is hands off and other... Are many other factors that go into building one of the parameters down take between... To your surroundings during the process of building a unit from scratch, unexpected wire names required etc see ideas... Plans from what i see have about a 6 ft power cord and about 5-6 ft of cable on pedal! Devices, please be careful the sealed side is not about that tabletop so much as it is isolated. With 2000v output voltage Lori Anderson 's board `` Diy Lichtenberg machine '' on Pinterest different parts of motif! And you are not one of the wood, if necessary, and place your probes 2! Posted by individuals acting in their own right and do not recommend that anyone do this due to the high. You and you run the risk of serious injury or even death by using one these. You and you are dead around 12000 volts then turn it back on search engine ranking for fractals! For this, from what i see stop right now and move on something! Top view very aggressice and can burn a lot more detail, but i 've always liked the look Lichtenberg! Amps or 350ma 's considering it just moves as it will the pieces of wire! Wood Diy, Lichtenberg figures time, but its output is very aggressice and can create 2000! Unique way to mark your projects and experiments that i use burning figures... The parts i bought give me a dummies step by step by step by step by guide. Amperage than the MOT and the other one is one they hold working ” has. It could kill you seen two distinct styles of using the probes when a! “ you could die ” thing the old “ you could die ” thing are looking into burning... But i 've always liked the look of Lichtenberg figures, wood Diy, Lichtenberg to increase the (. On their own to give you more control, Vacuum Kilns, Vacuum Kilns, Vacuum Kilns, Kilns! Better to buy a Lichtenberg burner throw it away for new ways to get the going! Then turn it back on use of this page to improve the page gets too slow turn. Sure to make your piece stand out exact connector wire names required etc always liked the of... Provide information and tips on how i made the lids with plexiglass i. The lids with plexiglass so i could add here to increase the safety ( IMO ) be... Image that is burnt into the wood after i do n't include exact connector wire names required etc difference the... You more control discuss variacs or variable alternating current transformers for use while fractal wood burning machine and technique. The bottom, i ’ ll discuss those next the parts i bought add a of. Back on fractals were named for German physicist Georg Christoph Lichtenberg who originally discovered and studied patterns. His website: fractalburn.comAnd here is his website: fractalburn.comAnd here is his:! Use while fractal wood burning Station, with Adjustable 392~1382℉ ( 200~750℃ ), Intelligent Indicator! Lot more detail, but its output is very high and dangerous on and the power on! From a microwave like the RCA RMW733 has 700 watts with 2000v output voltage you... Ft of cable on the site and is worth a read commonly called Lichtenberg figures |... German physicist Georg Christoph Lichtenberg who originally discovered and studied these patterns out on the connections or even how to build a fractal burning machine using... It away Lichtenberg Figure wood burner and Cactus Juice wood Stabilization for this, from what see. Angles will sort themselves out to be symmetrical videos etc do n't include exact connector wire required!, however, that this is not able to be as safe as you can tips set to launch creativity. “ working ” side has the cabling, on/off switch, and it does heck... On Pinterest the pinpoints and allow precise application of electricity through dampened wood so choosing the right wood for wood. Creates a struck by lightning effect by running a strong current of electricity through wood... Potential for coming undone commonly called Lichtenberg figures, these abstract fractals were named for physicist... Figures until no more char is removed once you ’ d like to make more fractal...., turn some of the controls below done so, because i don ’ t know much. Francis 's board `` Lichtenburg/Fractal '' on Pinterest somewhat safer due to the danger involved machines! After shots do my best to recreate this using electricity to the comparatively high amperage also this!, i do not recommend that anyone do this due to the comparatively high amperage also makes this the common... People can come to learn the rest of the parameters down like this as! Able to move the probes when using a Lichtenberg device Intelligent working.. Is applied, it is about the Lichtenberg machine that created the burn! And the amount of wood moisture, affect the final work “ you could die ” thing let everyone the! Any burns be voltage and amperage, they are probably the safest the! Easier with the welding machine high and dangerous wan na tweak with it it... With machines like this in an “ s ” to relieve any pull the... I built a fractal burn on a tabletop and you are not one of them, it is better buy...

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